New F600 project

[kickflip]

Thanks JohnnyD.
I thought they might be decals, but i couldn't shake the thought that Cannondale might just do a paint job like that.....
Very good point - mismatching 'groupset' parts is the 8th deadly sin, at least it is on a Cannondale.
On other bikes, it is (whilst slightly distasteful) acceptable, but absolutely not on a Cannondale.
I know what you mean about favourite ride.....
I used to race DH and XC (most people did back then) on a variety of bikes supplied by the local bike shop.
I saw a (Cannondale) advert in one of the mountain biking magazines. It was 'snippets' from bike reviews (it was supposed to look like cuttings from a newspaper randomly stuck on the page (if that makes sense)).....
The thing was, every single one of the snippets was one reviewer or another criticizing Cannondale bikes. Some were quite blunt (over-priced, over-engineered, avoid at all costs etc.....).
At the bottom centre of the page, in small text (not in the snippet style) underneath the Cannondale logo were the words.....'Above all else.....it's a Cannondale'.....
To this day, the bravest piece of advertising i have ever seen.
I asked the LBS if they could get me a Cannondale.
Delivery was messed up and it ended up on the other side of the city.
I walked for over an hour to the delivery depot.
Discovered that i needed (but didn't have) basic tools to assemble the bike.
The depot guys were great and pretty soon i was rolling.
As i was a long way from home, thought i might as well give the bike a test ride.
Didn't go home until it got dark and didn't stop grinning the whole time.
Took the DH and XC bikes (Univega and Specialized respectively) to the LBS the next day and asked them to sell both.
Rode and raced that Cannondale (it was an F700 that was slightly too small for me) hard in all disciplines for about 20 years. I wouldn't even entertain the thought of any other bike.
A car rear ended me on the road and bent the back end up.
I still miss that bike.
Anyway.....

 

[black lightning 1987]

Good news is that all the GRX components arrived and are perfectly new. Bad news is that the 46/30 crank is just a bit TOO close to the chainstay as I have about 1-2 mm on the 46T if I do some jury rigging around with using MTB BB cups and spacers. Not a chance in hell that the 46T chainring fits with road BBR60 that Shimano recommends. I might have to forgo the 2x11 and make it an 1x setup using a 44T chainring. Or I can chance it and order some TA Specialties 44/28 chainrings made for GRX from Europe. The fun of making things work when it comes to working on Cannondale bikes, AND fitting modern components on older frames.
Gives me something fun to do regardless or and excuse to find a good XR or XS frame.

Would a smaller big ring give you enough clearance? I have no idea what options exist for modern cranks.
How much room do you need? I'm assuming the crank takes a Shimano external cup bottom bracket. You could have the left side shell faced by a couple of mms and use a spacer under the drive side cup.

 

[JohnnyD]

Would a smaller big ring give you enough clearance? I have no idea what options exist for modern cranks.
How much room do you need? I'm assuming the crank takes a Shimano external cup bottom bracket. You could have the left side shell faced by a couple of mms and use a spacer under the drive side cup.

Ideally, a smaller ring would be the best option. Something like a 44T outer and keeping the inner 30T. As I said earlier. I know TA Specialties makes a GRX specific 44T outer as well as an inner 28. I will dig out one of my spare 44T 104 BCD chainrings from my parts box as a gauge and to see if the decrease circumfrence of 44T makes enough of a difference. I don't think I need to drop the inner to a 28. For the time being I plan on keeping the 11-34T cassette, then see if I need to widen the range out back up to a 40T.

 

[kickflip]

1x makes me more comfortable i must say.
That picture of the double you posted had my nerves jangling.....
I'm sure i'm pointing out what you already know.....but you could space the chainring out.
I do it a lot to improve chainline.
I've found it's the easiest, least risky method of achieving the aim.
I've never had much success (long term) when it comes to performing 'open heart' (machining the frame) surgery on a bike and i've always found that bottom brackets and cranks are 'best friends' if used as intended. That is any unconventional spacing, tweaking etc eventually comes back to haunt me.
As you say.....all good fun though!

 

[JohnnyD]

1x makes me more comfortable i must say.
That picture of the double you posted had my nerves jangling.....
I'm sure i'm pointing out what you already know.....but you could space the chainring out.
I do it a lot to improve chainline.
I've found it's the easiest, least risky method of achieving the aim.
I've never had much success (long term) when it comes to performing 'open heart' (machining the frame) surgery on a bike and i've always found that bottom brackets and cranks are 'best friends' if used as intended. That is any unconventional spacing, tweaking etc eventually comes back to haunt me.
As you say.....all good fun though!

The chainrings on the GRX crank mount from the rear. Applying a spacer between it and the crank spider would only move the chainring inboard more, which is the opposite of what I want.

 

[Kingswindsor]

Ideally, a smaller ring would be the best option. Something like a 44T outer and keeping the inner 30T. As I said earlier. I know TA Specialties makes a GRX specific 44T outer as well as an inner 28. I will dig out one of my spare 44T 104 BCD chainrings from my parts box as a gauge and to see if the decrease circumfrence of 44T makes enough of a difference. I don't think I need to drop the inner to a 28. For the time being I plan on keeping the 11-34T cassette, then see if I need to widen the range out back up to a 40T.

Hi JohnnyD,
Just in case it helps, this is what my experience has been of a similar conversion from a few years ago here

I went straight for the single, never tried a double as I was trying to go simple/light/robust and so it has turned out - I'm very pleased with the 1x11 setup.

The chainset I have is the 42 tooth ring with 172.5 cranks. There is a spacer behind the BB cup - see photos to try and estimate the size. Chainline is OK.

I've also tried to photograph the chainring clearance which may not help much as the scale is impossible to work out. However, using allen keys as rough & ready feeler gauges, a 1/16" passes through but a 5/64" doesn't so I estimate the gap is 1.6-1.8mm at the smallest (sort of perpendicular to the chainstay curve). A 44T will be hardly any bigger and straight back so it won't close the gap very quickly (if that makes sense). If you do go for a double, you may gain a fraction more clearance as the 1x ring has quite pronounced teeth to stop the chain coming off as and it doesn't need to derail the chain.

The TA rings are good, but hard to come by here in the UK as well. I got some for a Trek 9.8 I was rebuilding and needed to get the 3 chainrings from 3 shops.

 

[JohnnyD]

Hi JohnnyD,
Just in case it helps, this is what my experience has been of a similar conversion from a few years ago here

I went straight for the single, never tried a double as I was trying to go simple/light/robust and so it has turned out - I'm very pleased with the 1x11 setup.

The chainset I have is the 42 tooth ring with 172.5 cranks. There is a spacer behind the BB cup - see photos to try and estimate the size. Chainline is OK.

I've also tried to photograph the chainring clearance which may not help much as the scale is impossible to work out. However, using allen keys as rough & ready feeler gauges, a 1/16" passes through but a 5/64" doesn't so I estimate the gap is 1.6-1.8mm at the smallest (sort of perpendicular to the chainstay curve). A 44T will be hardly any bigger and straight back so it won't close the gap very quickly (if that makes sense). If you do go for a double, you may gain a fraction more clearance as the 1x ring has quite pronounced teeth to stop the chain coming off as and it doesn't need to derail the chain.

The TA rings are good, but hard to come by here in the UK as well. I got some for a Trek 9.8 I was rebuilding and needed to get the 3 chainrings from 3 shops.

View attachment 14328View attachment 14329

I see what you mean about the spacer, looks like the 2.5 mm one. Which would make sense when using a mountain BB with GRX parts. For some reason GRX is considered a road groupset and is suppossed to use the road BB that doesn't require spacers. The bearing cups are physically wider than the mountain, basically acting like having equal spacers on both sides of the BB. Shimano is almost as nuts as Cannondale with their "standards" on the bottom brackets.

 

[Kingswindsor]

I see what you mean about the spacer, looks like the 2.5 mm one. Which would make sense when using a mountain BB with GRX parts. For some reason GRX is considered a road groupset and is suppossed to use the road BB that doesn't require spacers. The bearing cups are physically wider than the mountain, basically acting like having equal spacers on both sides of the BB. Shimano is almost as nuts as Cannondale with their "standards" on the bottom brackets.

Yes, it is a mountain BB - an MT800

 

[JohnnyD]

While I enjoy the challenge of getting this to work on the bike It is still frustrating. I do kind of wish I had just used MicroShift Sword groupset. It's 100% mechanal and it uses "standard" mountain BB's. Hell I already had the 9 speed 11-46 cassette for the sytem on the bike because it was using a MicroShift Advent 1x9 speed. Still might go that route TBH, and save the GRX 2x for a frame that it will fit with less hassle. My 94 Delta V is just sitting all torn down at the moment and the frame has been modified to accept disk brakes as well as the Headshok having disc mounts. HMMM, maybe that is a better option as the chainstays are much narrower. Might have to do some test fitting later this week..

 

[JohnnyD]

Some progress has been made, despite the heat here in Texas. I wasn't happy with how the first set of bars felt. 44 cm was just too narrow, although that is what it should be with my shoulder width. So I picked up a set of Ritchey Corralitos in 50 cm. MUCH better fit with the 100 cm +6° stem with my hands on the hoods and in the drops it feels great during the test fit. I still have 90 mm +20° stem to move it closer and higher should I have too once I get all the parts together and take it for a ride. The Ultegra BB and a few other odds and ends will be here Monday, so I will get everthing mounted and try to see if with the correct road BB that the GRX crank needs will let the 46/30 combo work, if it doesn't I have to 40T single ring ready as well. I still really want the double combo to work.

Here's the GRX crank and other goodies.

The A.S. Solutions IS to flat mount adapters fit perfectly and allow me to keep the GRX calipers AND still have 180 mm front and 160 mm rear brake rotors. The 2mm thick Magura rotors that are still on the wheels before the rebuild cleared with zero adjustments. I tried a set of cheap ebay clones and that was a waste of 15 dollars.

Sorry for the darkness of the pictures, but I tend to work on the bike late at night to avoid the Texas sun, plus it's about the only free time I have between working full time and being the helper mule for my brothers lawn care business during the mornings. Regardless, progress is being made on this build. Not so much on the Super V 2000 build. You can see the frame and rear swing arm hiding in the background, as well as the Lefty for the build, and they are 95% done being sanded and ready for primer and painting. So that's coming soon too. My goal is to have them both done before my birthday in Nov.

 

[kickflip]

Getting there!
I always find the 'self doubt' starts creeping in - when i've spent money that transpires to be a waste of money in search of perfection (or what constitutes perfection to me).....
But it's always worth it - when you ride it for the first time and know that it is exactly what you had in mind.

 

[JohnnyD]

Getting there!
I always find the 'self doubt' starts creeping in - when i've spent money that transpires to be a waste of money in search of perfection (or what constitutes perfection to me).....
But it's always worth it - when you ride it for the first time and know that it is exactly what you had in mind.

About the only tangible self doubt on this bike build is do I bite the bullet and buy a brown leather Ritchey Classic saddle and matching bar tape. Decided to wait it out and found super great deal on pinkbike for an unused box Ergon gravel bar tape in black. I can decide later if I want to change it.

Now if someone can confirm 100% that 700c x 37's will fit without issues, then that would be the only other change to the bike build.

 

[JohnnyD]

I still haven't fully committed to going 1x, but the GRX crank and 40T chainring are fitted, along with the 11-40T cassette. I did pick up some Race Face Turbine 2x11 104 BCD chainrings that I am going to fit to my black Deore crank that has the oval chainring on it. I played it safe and got a 34/24T combo and see if that allows me to make a 2x setup work. Not the best gear combo to use I know. But if it's workable with the GRX front derailleur. I just might do that. If not, well they will stay on that crank for when I build out the Prophet as a 2x11 using the 11-34T cassette I got with the GRX groupset.
Another option, that I haven't found any one doing is using the newer Shimano CUES U6000-2 that has a 46/30T option. It's built to use a MTB BB. I am just unsure if the 46T is in the same place regarding the chainline on the crank as a 44T would be on a triple. If so, that would totally solve the chainstay clearance issue! Also I am not 100% certain that you could get the GRX front derailleur to shift correctlty with the wider chainline.
What fun it is to try to fit modern components on older bikes! Shimano is almost as picky as Cannondale with their stuff. Why two different pull ratios on derailleurs between road and MTB 11 speed. SRAM didn't see the need to do it, but they use stupid DOT fluid in their brakes.. so yeah.

For reference this would be the 40T chainline:


This looks like it will sit in 7th or 8th when straight:

 

[JohnnyD]

Well after some more research and parts ordering.. I FINALLY got a 46/30 crankset to work. It wasn't I had hoped would work, but it's pretty darn close.
I settled on installing a Shimano Cues U6000-2 crankset. My "tism" wouldn't let me use anything but a Shimano crankset. The crank use MTB BB spacing and has a 48.8 mm chainline, which is close to the 47 mm chainline that the GRX crankset uses. Got all the shifter cables installed, derailleurs adjusted to shifting good while on the stand. Now all that is left is to order the brake pads, pad retaining pins, and bleed the brakes.. Then it's test ride time and final adujustments followed by bar tape install.
Here's how it looks right now.

I do have to say that newer Shimano road front derailleurs are a bit finicky to set up. It took watching a setup video a few times to make sure I got it right. It's definitely not a strait forward as older 7-9 speed derailleurs are. Thankfully, the road shifters and derailleurs play nicely with the MTB crank.

 

[JohnnyD]

I finished the final bits and bobs today. The test ride went great with zero issues.

All done.

Not too terrible for my first attempt at wrapping bars.

Cables are all nice and cleanly routed.

GRX flat mount calipers on IS mounts with 180/160 mm F/R rotors.

It's complete, until I figure out just how big and wide of a tire I can fit on 27.5/650 B wheels or 700C. I will spend a few months riding it as is to see if I OK with just leaving it 26 in.
The conversion information here says 2 in. on Furio frames, but that doesn't sound right in my head for some reason. The tires I have now are 26 in x 2.3in so you'd think 27.5 2.125 would be possible. Regardless if my mental math is wrong, I have found some nice 27.5 x 2.0 (650Bx50 to be exact) gravel tires with tan side walls. Terravail Cannonballs.. I just might do the conversion just for the name on the tire alone because I am such a nerd.
I will also be switching the seat and bar tape this winter while I have the bike down to send in the fork to be serviced. I really think it will look better with a Ritchey Classic Saddle in brown with matching Ritchey bar tape.

Edit: Forgot to mention that a 46/30 crank with 11-40T cassette is FAST. I got it up to a steady 27mph as fast as my old legs could push it. For comparison I rode my M700 on the same stretch of road and could get it only up to 25 with it's 44T big ring. That speed difference might be because I was still a bit tired from riding the F600 first though. For some fun comparison to the gear nerds that care, I created a gear range comparison for the two bikes.

 

[black lightning 1987]

4:1 ratio is high enough (actually too high) for any bike I will ever ride. In the 80s pro road riders typically had a high gear of 52/13 (4.0) or 52/12 (4.33). And most any road bike sold since then has had a high gear in the same range. Not sure how your tire diameter compares but it's probably not very far off.

 

[JohnnyD]

4:1 ratio is high enough (actually too high) for any bike I will ever ride. In the 80s pro road riders typically had a high gear of 52/13 (4.0) or 52/12 (4.33). And most any road bike sold since then has had a high gear in the same range. Not sure how your tire diameter compares but it's probably not very far off.

You are right. Maybe, just maybe in my youth I could put out enough watts long enough to make something out of the 4.0 and 4.18 on these two bikes. Now that I am creeping up on 53, my knees say "ain't gonna happen pal!" Still it's fun for the super short bursts of time I can do it. Typically, I ride much more sedately. On all my 1x12, 10 and 11 speed conversions I use 32T chainrings up front. The 2.9 ratio is so easy that I can ride for hours and my knees and thighs don't complain afterwards.

 

[black lightning 1987]

I was thinking of your 1 x builds while riding the Super V 2000. I rode pavement, gravel, and hills on sod and never shifted off the 32. I don't have the low gear of a current 1 x build though, so still need the small ring in the rough stuff.

 

[JohnnyD]

I was thinking of your 1 x builds while riding the Super V 2000. I rode pavement, gravel, and hills on sod and never shifted off the 32. I don't have the low gear of a current 1 x build though, so still need the small ring in the rough stuff.

I don't often shift the M700 with it's 3x9 from the middle 32T ring either. Having the 11-34T in the rear is pretty much adequate for most for the paved and gravel roads around my part of Texas I ride that bike on. I do have the option of a wide range 1x9 MicroShift Advent with an 11-42T cassette that I could use if there were such a thing as real hills in my area.

 

[black lightning 1987]

We have quite a few grades in the 9-10% range, paved and gravel, close enough to ride from my place. Up in the Driftless Area 75 miles north there are grades approaching 15%.